Part 2 – Virtual Big Box, Orvis resellers and the debut of the cosmetic second

The marketplace for the hardwired angler Where’s them damn bargains you hinted at?

The Orvis resellers on eBay are Adam’s Outlet, a fly shop in Austin Texas, and Redwoodloft, a wholesaler in Virginia. Both companies have essentially the same Orvis inventory, but Adam’s Outlet is a fly shop, with a broad range of tackle and resells Hardy, Cortland, and Scientific Anglers rods.

Redwoodloft markets tackle under both the Redwoodloft and Redlineloft eBay stores.  One deals in the tackle and the other sells all the clothes, in the last month they’ve adopted the Adam’s Outlet model, and Redlineloft appears to market the bulk of their rods.

Too much filler to pass inspection (the only blemish I could find)

They’re the Big Boy’s, combining for nearly 50000 sales of Orvis products, it’s two “mean old dogs” warring over the same turf, adopting each other’s sales pitch and tactics, and evolving their offerings to maximize profit.

Other vendors exist, like Virginia Wholesalers – another largely Orvis reseller. In excess of 10000 sales – and in traditional style with incomplete sizes and disjoint quantities. They’re in a similar mode as Redlineloft – lots of clothing and sundries, rods and fly lines.

The eBay trail is forked and elusive, many vendors buy from other eBay sellers for resale under their own “tent.” It’s a common practice – and one glance at their buyer’s feedback will show where they bought the tackle from and how much they paid for the item.

Peeling the eBay Onion

We need definition and nomenclature to assist in answering the burning question, “exactly what are these rods and what’s my risk in buying one?”

Orvis Factory Second Badging

Badging” is the practice of marking rods with maker’s name, rod attributes, and series information – we’re so used to seeing it we hardly give it a second’s notice.

Orvis rods on eBay have three styles of “badging”; “traditional” – identical to the rods in their catalog, with the addition of a small “R” branded on the cork grip. These are likely production overstock without flaw – simply offloaded to make room for next year’s models.

“Incomplete” – the rod specific information on the blank, the presence of the “R” on the cork, and “Orvis Graphite” in place of the normal rod markings. As the badging is different than production it’s likely these are cosmetic seconds, removed from the assembly process once some minute flaw is found.

More recently is the “Orvis Factory Second” label with “R” on the cork, and rod specific information. This could be a response to someone removing the tell-tale “R” off the cork and attempting to pass the rod as a full price purchase.

Both “Incomplete” and “Factory Second” styles lack series information on the blank, nothing identifying the rod as Zero Gravity, T3, Green River, etc.

Orvis Graphite Badging

All of the resellers have different explanations, and the “R” on the cork has been the subject of much conjecture.

Adam’s Outlet insists, THIS ROD IS NEW. THE CORK IS MARKED WITH A SMALL “R” SO THAT IT CANNOT BE RETURNED TO ORVIS FOR A FULL PRICE REFUND. ORVIS WILL REPAIR THE ROD FOR A FEE IF BROKEN.

It’s understandable that Orvis wouldn’t want to extend carte blanche to a rod resold twice, but not mentioning it may be a “factory second” is a tad unworthy. It may or may not actually be a blemished rod, chances are it was sold to them as such.

Then again, Adam’s Outlet has more than one version: THIS ROD IS NEW,WITH ALL FIRST QUALITY PARTS (BLANK AND COMPONENTS). THE ROD HAS NO DEFECT BUT MAY HAVE COMPONENTS DIFFERENT FROM THE CATALOG VERSION. THE CORK IS MARKED WITH A SMALL “R” SO THAT IT CANNOT BE RETURNED TO ORVIS. ORVIS WILL REPAIR THIS ROD FOR A FEE IF BROKEN.

Using different components may be consistent with an “end of production” run of rods, wherein the maker simply builds what blank stock he has left with what fittings are scattered about – yielding a rod different from the catalog glossy.

Redwoodloft (Prior to 5/1/2008)

 Note:  “R” on cork grip indicates rod has been refurbished.

Refurbish may be something different than what I imagine – to me refurbish means the rod has been used and a component needs repair. A rod owner intent on repair wants the rod back, where would Orvis find a stash of “used” rods to refurbish? This may be a semantic issue (see Orvis comment below).

Redlineloft (after 4/1/2008)

CONDITION: As pictured, rod is brand new, never used and in ORVIS rod sleeve (Color of sleeve may be tan or green). First grade cork (marked w/ a small “R” to prevent returns to Orvis – see photo). Orvis will repair this rod for a fee if broken.

James Hathaway of the Orvis Company has the best answer:

“The R stands for “Really Awesome”

Actually, you are correct, it stands for “Refurbished”. They are rods sold at our tent sales and things like that.

“Tent Sales” suggest the occasional “maker’s premise” type sale – held on special occasions and in limited quantities – belying the multiple thousands of rods sold through eBay.

For civilians with less principles, sanding off the “R” on the fully badged rod is child’s play. Orvis’s badging the rods with “Factory Seconds” and vendor greed seems to have partly addressed this problem.

Both Redlineloft and Adam’s Outlet are canny profit motivated vendors, they’ve got a lock on the market and selling a rod for double their money is good, but quadruple is better. Both vendors have adopted identical practices, rather than auction the rods they “fish” for anglers unfamiliar with their method.

How they’re Sold

The rod debuts on eBay as a “Buy It Now” sale, often at $250 – $500 price. The accompanying prose mentions “new PRODUCTION rod” and the MSRP is listed on the advert, showing the purported $600 new – only $350, so buy it now!

On the surface, that’s a $600 rod at nearly half price, and they sell plenty to the unwary. Both parties are happy, great transaction – and the only “foul” is the fellow could have purchased it for half that.

If the rod fails to sell, it shows up as an auction the following week. Starting price for Adam’s Outlet, 99 cents. Redline/Redwood starts it at $99 for the high end, less for the lower end tackle.

Both the “Buy It Now” and auction sales are seven days duration.

A canny consumer notes the rods listed from the vendor as “Buy It Now”, waits a week and bids on the rod he wants via auction.

Both vendors appear to be selling the same models of rod (see below for what’s available), so the best deals are when each has the same rod at auction. Often they’ll replace the recently sold with an identical model, and the two of the folks competing with you just bought one – suddenly your competition is greatly reduced.

It’s not necessary to be so discriminating on the larger lined rods, you can usually get the lines 8-13 with little competition. The market for large rods is much smaller, with AFTMA 9-13 garnering only a few bids each. In many cases you can get a traditional 9ft. 9 weight for the initial bid – $99.

That’s one hell of a bargain for a $600 rod, and it’s a self fulfilling prophecy, the patient angler gets the cookie.

What’s Available From these Lads

I’ve included the Excel ebay_vendor_record.xls spreadsheet of the rods sold by the two vendors, this file lists the models, pieces, line weight, series, opening price, and final sales price for January – March 2008. I’ve included both vendors (on separate pages) so you can see the magnitude of sales.

These statistics are from the feedback logs on eBay, which are pruned each month. Each vendor retains about three months of live log, so you can see what they’ve done recently – I saved these months so the facts aren’t lost with the pruning.

In my mind, the magnitude of sales is formidable – none of the shops I worked at could hold a candle to either vendor, in the best of times.

For completeness, assume 15-20% of the sales were not listed, unless the purchaser left feedback, the sale will not show on the eBay log, so you need to boost the dollar totals to compensate.

Who’s Hurt by all This

That’s the toughest question of all. Certainly the “little guy” gets a nose bleed – he’s stuck with last year’s inventory without the options of the manufacturer – and lives in fear that Sage or Scott may cut off his supply if he unloads them at cost.

The manufacturers solve the near term dilemma of what to do with unsold inventory, but pays dearly in reputation when their retail outlets find out they’ve been misled by a “do as I say, not as I do” posture. The retail chain won’t squawk too much – they’re dependent on product to add legitimacy to their storefront – without Simm’s or Sage products can you call yourself a fly shop?

The manufacturers can take injury if their practice becomes widely known and the reseller supply ample – no one will buy their $700 rods anymore – we’ll all wait 12 months and get it for $150.

You’ve got the tools, the available models, and the method, I’ll let you decide what to do with the knowledge.

Thinking outside the Box

Many are skeptical of the eBay process, assuming the vendors are not as safe as the local fly establishment. The shift from “human” vendors to companies has been largely missed by the casual shopper. There’s still plenty of human foibles and interaction – but the eBay marketplace seems dominated by established retail and wholesale outlets – not someone cleaning their attic like it once was.

Fly shops that adapt well to the e-Marketplace are doing a phenomenal business. Case in point, Leland Outfitter’s of San Francisco – to assist customers in the purchase of new rods and reels, they’ll take your old tackle and auction it for you on eBay. Professional photography and web savvy has given them a market no other fly shop has an inkling of – more importantly, all the used tackle sells smartly. Angler’s profit because their $700 rod is now $500, and Leland sells additional new tackle, a positive outcome for both participants.

Shoppers are still more comfortable doing business with a store – a great opportunity for a small shop with unconventional vision.

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26 thoughts on “Part 2 – Virtual Big Box, Orvis resellers and the debut of the cosmetic second

  1. Pingback: Get enough virtual bricks and mortar, and you’ve created both a Big Box retail outlet, and the World’s Largest Fly Shop : Singlebarbed

  2. Ethan

    Hey great investigative piece, good detective work. I’ve never bought a rod off of ebay but this piece just made me MUCH more aware of the tactics of the sellers. Thanks for all the good work. The excell doc is totally sweet. Nice work!

  3. Pete

    Thanks for a solid follow-up to the first. You’re becoming like the Magnum PI of the fly fishing blogosphere.

  4. Jean-Paul Lipton

    Great follow-up. I’ve bought several rods through ebay over the years, with nary a problem, and have been quite pleased with them. But, I was an informed consumer, did not expect full warranties from manufacturers, and took the sales with a grain of salt.

    Caveat Emptor.

    If I really want that new $650 Scott rod with the unconditional guarantee, I know I need to save up and buy it from an authorized retailer, likely at full retail, and not from John Q. Public off of ebay just so I can save a buck. Anything worth having is worth working for.

  5. jvk

    You know… I have to say that I did buy an Orvis Trident TLS 9′ 8wt 2pc from the Redwoodloft on ebay after reading your blog a few months back ( http://singlebarbed.com/2008/02/27/orvis-took-a-page-from-bill-belichick-and-filmed-the-winston-practice/ ). It has full traditional badging on it as well as the R on the cork. I picked it up for $103.
    My transaction was flawless and I am happy with the rod. Of course I will now wait to buy a new rod from my local fly shop until this fall for the salmon run. I was going to buy a rod from the fly shop but they didnt get them in until a month and a half too late and the steelhead run was over.
    Not sure how this will impact the industry and not sure that I will purchase that way again, but I sure did save a lot of money. It seems like there are things that I will not buy online but will wait until I can get to the local fly shop. Those things are fly tying materials, flies, lines (they will put it on the reel for me with free backing), and other random things like shot and leaders, etc… Maybe the fly shops need to try and figure out a way to make themselves “value added” in the things they can only be. Casting clinics, tying classes, water/fishing reports, etc…

    I say all this and I will also say that I still will not buy from big box stores (cabelas, bass pro). Not sure what that makes me for buying a rod on ebay…

    cheers
    jvk

  6. jvk

    for some reason my first attempt didnt post…
    You know… I have to say that I did buy an Orvis Trident TLS 9′ 8wt 2pc from the Redwoodloft on ebay after reading your blog a few months back ( http://singlebarbed.com/2008/02/27/orvis-took-a-page-from-bill-belichick-and-filmed-the-winston-practice/ ). It has full traditional badging on it as well as the R on the cork. I picked it up for $103.
    My transaction was flawless and I am happy with the rod. Of course I will now wait to buy a new rod from my local fly shop until this fall for the salmon run. I was going to buy a rod from the fly shop but they didnt get them in until a month and a half too late and the steelhead run was over.
    Not sure how this will impact the industry and not sure that I will purchase that way again, but I sure did save a lot of money. It seems like there are things that I will not buy online but will wait until I can get to the local fly shop. Those things are fly tying materials, flies, lines (they will put it on the reel for me with free backing), and other random things like shot and leaders, etc… Maybe the fly shops need to try and figure out a way to make themselves “value added” in the things they can only be. Casting clinics, tying classes, water/fishing reports, etc…

    I say all this and I will also say that I still will not buy from big box stores (cabelas, bass pro). Not sure what that makes me for buying a rod on ebay…

    cheers
    jvk

  7. jvk

    You know… I have to say that I did buy an Orvis Trident TLS 9′ 8wt 2pc from the Redwoodloft on ebay after reading your blog a few months back. It has full traditional badging on it as well as the R on the cork. I picked it up for $103.
    My transaction was flawless and I am happy with the rod. Of course I will now wait to buy a new rod from my local fly shop until this fall for the salmon run. I was going to buy a rod from the fly shop but they didnt get them in until a month and a half too late and the steelhead run was over.
    Not sure how this will impact the industry and not sure that I will purchase that way again, but I sure did save a lot of money. It seems like there are things that I will not buy online but will wait until I can get to the local fly shop. Those things are fly tying materials, flies, lines (they will put it on the reel for me with free backing), and other random things like shot and leaders, etc… Maybe the fly shops need to try and figure out a way to make themselves “value added” in the things they can only be. Casting clinics, tying classes, water/fishing reports, etc…

    I say all this and I will also say that I still will not buy from big box stores (cabelas, bass pro). Not sure what that makes me for buying a rod on ebay…

    cheers
    jvk

  8. KBarton10 Post author

    JVK – it makes you an informed canny consumer with principles, no shame in that. You may want to lose the principles as they get in the way to the Parking Lot after-action report..

    Pete – I would’ve settled for the “Barney Fife” of the Blogosphere, seems like I overshot my mark.

    and JPL – “Anything worth having is worth working for.” – that’s pure Old School, it’s obvious that your credit card isn’t maxxed – you must be why the economy is in shambles.

  9. Jean-Paul Lipton

    yeah good one there KB. Believe me, I am a typical American consumer, and have cetainly done my part to “stimulate” the economy over the past winter. I just try to place value on my investments 😉

  10. Ian

    There’s been some great detective work done here. What we’re being shown is a fuzzy picture of the future of fly fishing retail. As the small shops start to close up the specialty manufacturers will likely have to find creative ways to move the merchandise.

  11. KBarton10 Post author

    Thanks for the comments fellows, I promise to return to my old silliness shortly. I’ve got a black sedan with tinted glass following me around … I’ve obviously done something right.

  12. Pingback: Singlebarbed Delivers: "How to Buy a $700 Fly Rod For $99" | Fishing made easy

  13. rockyfly

    First off good crack at looking at the Ebay cult.There has been a distinct lack of analysis in the mainstream mags, more devoted to fluff and bubble and rehashing how to indicator nymph, and the blogosphere is the right place for it.

    You certainly did some work, and your best work, with that excel piece. I’m going to peruse your data more carefully, but as a fly shop retailer and a former journalist, I have to say some of your assumptions on the retailer side just didn’t delve deep enough.

    They are common enough assumptions but I learnt my first day as a journo (thank goodness, or I’d have committed worse sins over the years) to never assume you know everything, even if it’s commonly held as fact in the general community. Unfortunately this then reinforces misconceptions, and you get all the pats on the back from those who hold them.

    I also read of your 20y in the retail business, but I’d be curious if you were at the buying, financial end or the sales end given some of your statements.

    This isn’t personal criticism merely a question of perspective and I have to say I know of several fly shop owners who have or are going broke fast because they don’t get retail economics _ doesn’t make them bad salespersons, fly fishers or people.

    I hope the constructive criticism to come will be of better service to your future endeavors and of your readers.

    But you do understand the implications of journalism: that if you start looking at the issues then the “bullseye on your ample ass” as you eloquently put it, is going to get some gainful employment. Let me take aim LOL.

    First off let me clarify the average shelf life of a rod model is 3-5 years, not yearly. I’m sure you understand rod manufacturers introduce a new model every year but these rotate through their lineup, but others might not. Getting rid of “old” inventory is an annual circus for a retailer but manage your stocks right and you can generally do ok. I wouldn’t have liked being an Orvis dealer with the Zero-G/Helios transition but that was an exception to standard.

    Then again your expose on the R rod program, plus tent sales, and some of Orvis’ other practices make me pretty glad not to be an Orvis dealer.

    If you are a Sage, Scott, Winston, St Croix dealer you can mark down discontinued items after a given date to pursue a quick clearance. Ebay & Amazon is an option for these rods. But listing full price rods on Ebay is not allowed for dealers even if it’s not auctioned but listed at full retail as a buy it now item.

    I’d suggest that biggest headache for a small retailer is the method of volume driven manufacturer pricing, which punishes retailers for prudent buying.
    Do the comparisons with seasonal changes in a small fashion boutique or how about a computer store on the issues of obsolescence to understand this is not an uncommon issue in retailing.

    At the end of the first piece you did confirm your “sensibility” _ or in the mainstream its usually referred to as a bias, don’t worry every writer and reader has one _ that no rod is worth over $200. I can cope with your opinion, these are abundant in the world of fly fishing but not your assertion that there is $500+ pure profit in a $600 rod.

    Let’s break it down. Say a $500 rod for example so I don’t have to break out the calculator. The fly shop is going to pay between $250 and$300 for that rod, depending on the manufacturer and how many rods are early ordered for the season.

    Specialty retail experts will say your costs to run the shop will eat at least $150-200 of your $500 sale when you take into salaries, rent, electricity insurance, blah blah etc etc. Yep don’t buy enough, or don’t keep your costs down and the retailer might not make any money on that sale, at best $150.
    It’s hard to describe this as pure profit, after all it paid your salary, mine, keeps Americans employed and our economy ticking over unless you don’t want fly shops. And remember since we are discussing new models there will be some at the end of the rod’s life which will have to be discounted anyway.

    So to our manufacturing side the rod is sold for $250 (again for simplicity). $25 bucks is going to the rep, Mike Michalak has been critical on the role of the reps, earning their slice of the pie, but I’d be complimentary about mine, plus their costs to travel my territory are skyrocketing. Mike is a great operator but he should try working in Europe where a distributor system will add another layer of cost to US made rods _ 30%, to retailer’s purchase price. Reps are way cheaper.

    Somewhere between $100 and $150 bucks will go on the costs of business, salaries, advertising lawyers materials etc etc. So we have $75 to $100 at the manufacturers end for what most say is a few cents worth of materials. I’m not a graphite buyer but in my research for the past 10 minutes on manufacturing costs in the sporting industry found some 2003 figures that showed across the sporting goods industry the cost of materials and supplies was actually 76% of manufacturing costs. (Just a sidenote).

    So if that seems like the manufacturer gets a hefty $ chunk as profit let’s not forget the one element which is not a standard in manufacturing and does play heavily on pricing, particularly when comparing Ebay and retail rods, which is warranties.

    Just remember you have that rod for life and otherwise catastrophic damage will be fixed for 1/12 the value. It’s something that has always triggered issues with me over the value of second hand rods on Ebay or elsewhere.

    Taking the warranty away from a rod to my mind at least must significantly devalue that rod.
    Similarly for the Orvis R rods you mention.

    Statistical analysis is always open to debate but I would suggest that the only thing you can draw from your data is that some consumers will pay $650 for a ZeroG with a life time warranty, at retail outlets. Others will pay $220 to $290 for one without via Ebay outlets you mention.

    It certainly doesn’t say rods are overpriced, merely that consumers will pay different prices for different products.
    One for life, one which could last as long as its first meeting with a tungsten bead.

    Which brings me to an interesting question _ what if rod warranties were an optional extra, to be purchased, like an extended computer warranty. To my mind it would bring a lot more accountability to the process , lower rod prices and give consumers a choice.

    And finally
    Thanks for making me think over this stuff again ?

  14. KBarton10

    Rockyfly – you’ve got some great comments in your response, I don’t find fault with any of your observations.

    My inquiries of the rod companies were brushed off routinely, requiring me to piece together the story from less reliable sources – eBay transaction logs, etc.

    This is pretty consistent with my experience in the retail side of things; manufacturers listen patiently as you explain what would really work for you – then tell you “how the Cow eats the cabbage.”

    It’s a one-sided conversation to be sure.

    I am no longer involved with the day to day operations of a fly shop – but as a consumer, I think the volume of new items (rods, lines, vests, etc.) is on the upswing – making the effective lifespan shorter. Simm’s changes a zipper style on a vest – and suddenly it’s a “new” model.

    It’s good capitalism at work – as what every manufacturer wants is a steady stream of revenue, not a jerky “peaks and valleys” style of income they get with 3 year product lifespan.

    It’s the same thing occurring in the software industry – where yearly “subscriptions” are replacing the discrete boxed version release. It steadies the revenue stream allowing the financial planners to know what their income will be – rather than guess at what they’ll sell this calendar year.

    …and my thanks for allowing me to retain my “old curmudgeon” opinion. It’s all show – as I own enough tackle not to need any more rods. Not out of wisdom, more an artifact that many the shops I worked for in my youth failed – requiring employees to take their salary in items instead. It gives me the luxury of my unpopular (albeit cheaper) boast of a rod’s worth.

    I am concerned that rod makers are less inclined to make practical choices with rod science – I think their only goal is “new” – not practical. Shaving 1/2 an ounce off a 2 ounce rod is neat – but when did you complain of the weight of the 2 ounce rod?

    …and is that really worth an extra $300 ? That’s a tough call, for me – it’s not worth the price.

    I appreciate being taken to task – as this is the type of dialog that allows readers to be educated and entertained.

    …educated by your comments – and entertained while I “backpedal” in a panic.

    Welcome aboard Sir – we’re pleased to have you.

  15. rockyfly

    I’m a gear head and get more curmudgeonly by the day.
    Glad you took it in the way it was intended.I know its hard to get meaningful information, Ive been there in your position.

    How about looking at the economics of flylines given there is something like 10,000 different flylines, brands, tapers, sizes and colors out there, while about 95% of the population uses a WF floater _ on average 3-5 years.

    Who is paying for the diversity and all the stock sitting on shelves _ we are with $65 and $99 flylines.

    Cheers and keep it up.

  16. KBarton10 Post author

    I’m not sure my relationship with significant other can survive more investigative journalism.

    “What’s that, ANOTHER rod?”

    “Honest Sweetpea, it’s background material for a expose of the sinister prac..”

    “Junior needs ORTHODONTURE, and you’re SQUANDERING OUR money on more Rods?”

    The fly line piece has great merit – I’ll let the domestic scene cool a bit first.

  17. Pingback: Maybe This Is A (Fly) Fishing Blog, After All « Sand Dollar Adventures

  18. Electric Fishing Reels For Sale

    Purchasing equipment at ebay auctions is really almost the only way to go. You get what you want at the price you are willing to pay. Some times that is less than retail. But, at other times it is a bit more. But, as you mentioned the savier you are the better the deal you can find. Great inf. Thank you.

  19. Fishing Reels For Sale

    Great article on how the players are in the eBay rod sales market. It is really good to know the difference in the types of badges that are on the rods. it is just one more way to make sure you understand what you are buying. That is the most difficult part about buying online. Knowing that you are going to get what you paid for.

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